Racism and other isms.

[madrushian]

Because one interesting/controversial discussion at a time just isn't enough for me.

Here is a concept I am curious about thoughts/opinions on.

If we were to or would have removed the teaching of slavery or change how we teach about various races/ethnicity in the education system, would it speed up, or have sped up the process of equlity? What if instead of saying African Americans and defining them as black, we would have learned that humans enslaved fellow humans because some humans felt superior or where more socially/militarily/etc developed. Emphasize different points other than ethnic and skin differences as to why slavery happened.
I have a notion that the reason some people view other races as inferior may be in large part to how we learn about ethnicities in school.
One of the first historical lessons I learned about was slavery. Not the greatness of MLK. Not the inspiration of Rosa Parks, etc, but slavery.
No history of black culture as it existed in Africa or at all. First introduction was slavery.
It made me uncomfortable even to think about the idea of doing such things to people and it made me feel guilt for what previous European Americans did years and years ago. I did not become racist, but I know it made me feel guilt and different feelings around black people than around white people.

I know we would still find differences like skin color, ethnic practices, etc to fight about.
But I wonder if our education had been handled differently or some parts omitted altogether it may have helped the progression of equality.
This can be applied to any group of people. Are there certain facts you learned in school that when you look back changed to any degree how you view or initially think about a certain ethnicity?

I know stoping ism is impossible but I am curious to what others view as some of the main causes and some ways to help overcome it as much as possible.
Your thoughts?

[Dasffion]

I'm not sure if it'd help racism, it might, but the History we're taught in Middle School and High School has a lot of omissions. Being better informed might help things. For example, and on the topic of slavery, Most of the slaves that were picked up by slaving ships were put in cages on the coast by rival tribes for the slavers to pick up. I'm not saying the Anglos were right in what they were doing but it was the Africans that were giving their own people up into slavery. Part of the reason that I think that teaching things like this early on would help is because America is far from the first country to practice Slavery, but we seem to be the country that is most hung up on things like skin color.

Another thing which is only superficially on the topic of Racism but is left out of our history books pre college level is our treatment of the Native Americans. Stuff like the fact that we purposefully gave them blankets covered in diseases like small pox to which they had 0 immunity to kill them off.

[madrushian]

I was informed of Aficans capturing Africans, but it still is an astounding thing to learn overall.
Yeah it was not much until about HS when I learned more about European treatments of Natives.

I still laugh when people discuss...Did Columbus discover America...Was it Leif Ericson?

Often times they completely ignore the fact of the natives that were already here. Sad, very sad.
I do undertsand the coolness of travelling across a huge ocean in those vessels and thinking the world may be flat, that is awesome.
But it would be like me going to the coast, pointing, and saying, WOW look I dsicovered a new ocean. Crazy.

And I do not mean to limit this topic to just black and white, but any ism at all.
Any ideas or changes that may actually progress or could have helped progress the elimination or reduction of an ism, specific or general.

[Dasffion]

I still laugh when people discuss...Did Columbus discover America...Was it Leif Ericson?

Often times they completely ignore the fact of the natives that were already here. Sad, very sad.
I do undertsand the coolness of travelling across a huge ocean in those vessels and thinking the world may be flat, that is awesome.
But it would be like me going to the coast, pointing, and saying, WOW look I dsicovered a new ocean. Crazy.

And I do not mean to limit this topic to just black and white, but any ism at all.
Any ideas or changes that may actually progress or could have helped progress the elimination or reduction of an ism, specific or general.

Subject of what constitutes "discovery" aside Columbus didn't discover America anyway. He actually landed on Cuba.

[madrushian]

Well the Americas anyway. More like the western hemisphere. Semantics man semantice I am sure you get what I was driving at.
But still, discovery?

[Dasffion]

Well the Americas anyway. More like the western hemisphere. Semantics man semantice I am sure you get what I was driving at.
But still, discovery?

I gotcha, i just find it amusing. Your point though just shows how (generally) self centered "white" people are.

[Steamboy]

Subject of what constitutes "discovery" aside Columbus didn't discover America anyway. He actually landed on Cuba.

Isn't that like 90 miles from Florida? Did he turn around and go home or did he come to Florida? (sorry I don't know this....I blame my education)

Mad, I think it is appropriate that you learn about slavery and segregation before you learn about MLK. It puts him into a context.

[Hogger]

What I hate is when people have positive "isms" and think they're acceptable, my grandmother says things like "Oh those gays get a bad time, I actually think they're a nice group of people". Her saying things like that is still grouping certain individuals together and judging their behaviour as a whole, which is still prejudice. Being my grandma though I just /sigh and nod along usually...

I had a rant at a particular female friend recently when she called me sexist because of something I'd said to her, I tried to get across the fact that I always try and treat others as individuals and not group them according to certain aspects of their appearance / opinions. I said that if I ever judge a female to be a bad driver it would be based solely on her ability to drive, not my opinion of any other females who I've seen drive. This is one of the reasons I brought up insurance groups in another thread, because of how sexist and ageist they seem. No matter how you act, sometimes you're stuck with the stigma of being a certain sex and age, things you have no control over (don't bring up the fact you can choose to change sex, I'm not going that far just for cheaper insurance =P)

We're going to have to have a discussion on social class and birth rights one day, I think there would be a similar line of thought to this one with the prejudice involved. It's stupid how some people perceive themselves to be higher up than others due to what they're born into, it's one of the reasons I hate monarchies. Uncontrollable circumstances should not be taken into account when judging someone's behaviour.

The worst thing about "ism"s is when you judge someone personally based on their individual behaviour, and yet they take it as an attack on their race / sexual preference / gender etc. People who hide behind the "ism" shield are probably unable to face up to their own behaviour and actions and so use it as a scape goat.

Thinking about your talk on slavery and other heinous acts like that, there's been a documentary series on TV here for the past few weeks about the British Empire, I think some people under that banner carried out acts which were easily as bad Hitler in WW2. It was appalling watching some of the things England did, and most of it well into the 20th century. We only gave Hong Kong their independence back in 1997, and many other countries are still recovering from the effect on that empire. I just wish any remnants of that empire could be completely removed now so we can let countries affected to recover, albeit hopefully with our aid. There was one English entrepreneur in the early 1900's who went to India with some armed men, and literally walked into an Indian princes' palace and threw him out, who then claimed that land as his own and took all the princes' jewels to sell, leaving some english guy to rule that providence in India. Local Indians were then put into slavery or at least made to do menial work for minimum payment. If you look into it it's all horrific, and when you think how recently it all was it makes it even more so. And yet the British Empire as a whole is probably never been viewed as something as evil as the nazi party was.

Xenophobism is another ism to consider, the fear of the foreign, someone hating people of a different race who moved to their country. When you think nearly every country on the planet is now made up of descendants of invaders or travellers in the past who arrived to that country from another, it really is a ridiculous notion. I think people get too possessive over the land where they live sometimes. I'd be interested to hear some of your views on this one.

[madrushian]

Sadly I think statements like this:

As long as people differ there will be isms, is very true.
Humans tend to be like The Sneetches from Dr. Suess fame.
We like to class and define ourselves. The main difference seems to be that, unlike the sneetches, even though we have blended together more and more, instead of setting aside our differences and sharing fun on the beach, we still hold on to prejudice ideas.

[Hogger]

Sadly I think statements like this ... is very true ... We like to class and define ourselves

Hence my love of John Lennon's "Imagine". Yes he was a dreamer and I'd consider myself one too, but if he believed everything he sung about in that song then it shows you how it's possible to over come those definitions of difference. If more people join in that ideal then the human race can start to overthrow the entire concept, until that day it seems there's only ever going to be small pockets of people who don't judge others.

(I'm actually glad to see there's at least 20,000 such dreamers on this planet judging from the likes ^^ that gives me hope)

[Aengus]

"If we were to or would have removed the teaching of slavery or change how we teach about various races/ethnicity in the education system, would it speed up, or have sped up the process of equlity? "

No. Equality is sped up by individuals from different backgrounds being put in the same boat, and required to work with each other to succeed. Unfortuantly, people generally prefer to associate and surround themselves with others who share a familiarity with them. In short, jocks hang with jocks, the french hang with french, etc. When this natural tendancy is taken to the extreme, that is people intentionally avoid others with whom they don't share familiarity with, its often leads to ignorance regarding others, then prejeduce, then racism, then Darth Vadar. Education will only serve to reinforce previous attitudes.

Also, I'm not to sure about your idea about teaching African cultures as a prelude to teaching history. At the end of the day, you need to relate the information to the students. Many Americans can barely give a *crap* about stuff that directly affects them personally. Most won't give two shits about some random culture on another continent from back in the day. Especially where you and I grew up (what was is 98.9% white folks?).

[Aengus]

"Did Columbus discover America...Was it Leif Ericson?"

Nope, that was me.

[madrushian]

Like hell I discovered America!

[Steamboy]

What movie was that where the people lived in an isolated community. Then every now and then some of them would "go to America" and they were so excited. But really they were going to get their organs harvested. I can't remember who was in it, except the main actress had a big rack.

[madrushian]

The Island


and it was Scarlett Johanson (sp*)

[Steamboy]

Thank you Mad. You made my day Ok gotta go now and look for some more pics of Scarlett Johansson

[Aengus]

I would harvest the s**t out of those organs!

[madrushian]

I would treat her like a Wagyū cow and massage her until she was fully ready for the reaping.

[Steamboy]

Good call. I did that a couple time the other day.

[MiusMarta]

Sorry Jub I was too busy laughing at your "the true victims of racism are whites" and "those natives have unfair privileges over their oppressors." Its also pretty stupid to just decide theyre Canadians or Americans when a fair number dont consider themselves that at all. Thanks for being a fantastic illustration of my original comment, though.